A Conversation about A.I.

00:00
Paul Federwitz
How are we using these tools to support the translator and support the community? How are we using these tools to create a better quality translation? But it’s still a human that’s always the one that’s making that decision. 

00:22
Rich Rudowske
Welcome to the Essentially Translatable Podcast brought to you by Lutheran Bible Translators. I’m Rich Rudowske. 

00:27
Emily Wilson
And I’m Emily Wilson. And wanting to before we dive into the episode, share about Giving Tuesday this year is taking a shift and focusing on raising up prayer partners. So in years past we have raised funds for different programs and partnerships, and the partnership has just shifted a little bit and being able to sign up to become a prayer partner for Lutheran Bible Translators this Giving Tuesday or earlier. Also share with your friends to join the Bible translation movement as we lift up our brothers and sisters from around the world, how powerful that is and that the Lord hears us and we want to encourage you. You can sign up at lbt.org- really excited about that. 

01:15
Rich Rudowske
Since prayer is the strategy, Emily, you and I with the group were at the Museum of the Bible recently in Washington, D.C. There’s a history of Bible translation floor at the museum, and the last sequence there is this room called illumiNations Room, which shows ongoing Bible translation work. And I was just struck by-you look at the world’s languages represented there, you face one wall and you see all these translated scriptures that are done, and then a bunch of books that are there, like these are also done, but we haven’t found them yet. And you turn around and face the other wall. Half. It’s all blank plastic cases representing books where language works either in progress or not yet started. 

01:54
Rich Rudowske
And it’s just a bit overwhelming to think we want to see something in every one of those clear cases in the next ten years if the Lord wills. And that’s a matter for prayer. 

02:04
Emily Wilson
Absolutely. So we would love for you to join us in prayer. 

02:08
Rich Rudowske
You can’t really watch the news or social media or even commercials between football games these days without hearing about artificial intelligence or AI. It is the buzzword, and we are not immune in Bible translation ministry. A lot of excitement about what’s possible with the use of technology and also some thoughts of what’s ethical and okay and not okay with the use of technology. So a little bit of a different way of doing the podcast, but Paul Federwitz and I sat down- Paul’s our director for field programs-and just kind of had what we hope will feel like to you like a fireside chat. We’re just talking about some of the issues that are rising in technology, artificial intelligence, and machine assisted translation. 

02:49
Rich Rudowske
Some of the conversations that we’re having in this organization and just wanted to sort of open it up for you folks to get a glimpse on what conversations are happening right now. And all that to say, these aren’t definitive statements, but just recognizing this is the thing out there, we want to be having good conversations about it. 

03:08
Emily Wilson
Enjoy this conversation with Rich and Paul. 

03:15
Rich Rudowske
All right, we are in the studio today. That is myself and Paul Federwitz, Director for Field Programs, and we’re going to have a little bit of a different episode today. We’re just here having a conversation about all the things, AI, machine translation, and really just introducing the fact that it’s big news. It’s an ongoing conversation in our organization. This is not a definitive statement of any kind about our position, but just wanting to share some of our thoughts and some of the learning we’ve been doing and some of what we think will drive our approach to use of technology in Bible translation. So again, Paul, welcome to the studio. Your first time in here with us. 

03:56
Paul Federwitz
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, first time to be in the studio. Have all the gear rather than worrying about an Internet connection and hoping that it keeps working during the entire call. 

04:04
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. So different technology. So let’s talk a little bit about Paul as the director for field programs. Your background, though, is in it. So it’s not completely random that eventually the field programs director had a background in technology because that’s the way things are going. So tell us a little bit about your background in the organization, especially with regard to technology and how that forms what we’re going to talk about here. 

04:27
Paul Federwitz
Yeah, a lot of background in technology. One day I was trying to calculate it, I think about 30 years working in tech, starting in 7th grade, and having a job in technology ever since then until a year ago. So it’s a little weird to not be the tech guy anymore, but, yeah, a lot of different work in technology with supporting translation, teaching how to use the translation tools, looking at how we’re managing data. So just coming at it from a couple of different angles. 

04:53
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, and my background in the organization and more the field practitioner stage of my life here was in a local Bible translation project, working in a program for a language community that hasn’t had a Bible translation before. Working in the community development phase was quite a bit of what I did, getting a project started and a team assembled and being part of the initial language work. And really I was only there for the first book before handing off to other folks. So that’s part of my background is seeing the human being side, really, of all the connections that need to be made. Certainly technology. When you think strictly, “what is technology?” Technology has been involved in Bible translation. I mean, we had folks using computers and typing into a program called Paratext, which could do some predictive work. 

05:43
Rich Rudowske
If we have the Greek text and we’re seeing your translations done this, then we could predict-It was called an interlinearizer. So it didn’t sound as threatening as a machine translating, but it was essentially looking at the data that was there. We might predict that you might translate things this way. My point is, technology has been a part of Bible translation, so it’s not a new thing. Right, I mean, your mom talks about on her episode of the podcast that she typed the work that your dad and his team had done. They used technology called paper and pencils. And then she sat up at night and typed it all in a typewriter. So technology is part of Bible translation. 

06:19
Paul Federwitz
Yeah, I was just thinking about that very thing, actually. It’s like, yeah, I remember as a kid growing up in Liberia and, yeah, my mom typing on this typewriter that had been modified by my dad and Mike Rodewald, our previous executive director, to be able to do the special characters. And then kind of where we are now, and even looking back and saying, look, when I joined this organization 18 years ago, and I’m joining as an IT guy and talking to people in churches so many times that a question would come up about like, oh, our computer is doing the translation. And at that time, having that answer of like, no, they never could. And kind of having kind of a whole spiel, I could almost give it right now a whole spiel of like, this is why that wouldn’t work. 

07:03
Paul Federwitz
So it’s kind of interesting right now to be revisiting that question and saying, those answers are different, and the issues that we’re thinking about are different. And so. Yeah. Talking about that again. 

07:15
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, and since AI, is almost a buzzword now, has been in the news in all kinds of ways, and people seeing, there’s even, like, public access things to AI for, how to generate a rhyme or a song or the newest thing I’ve been seeing lately on my social media feed, which will tell a little bit about me, but people have been having AI redraw their favorite NFL football stadium, what it would look like if it could seat a million people and then putting that kind. But it’s a thing. And then a company that also, I’m noticing again, like, watching sports, there’s several commercials for companies that are saying, hey, if your organization is trying to use AI, it’s only as good as the data that’s there for the AI to use. So it’s not just so it’s on everybody’s consciousness. 

08:03
Rich Rudowske
And part of your life and mine is that people are going to ask us and are asking us more and more frequently, like, okay, so what does this mean for Bible translation work? Are there opportunities, you guys using this and doing this? And so this is an active conversation in our organization, active conversation in the Bible translation community. You were just with a great group of our field staff in Dallas. You guys had a chance to talk about that. Yeah. 

08:29
Paul Federwitz
So there was a Bible translation conference in Dallas just a couple of weeks ago with a lot of different translation organizations and a number of presentations about this, because this is a hot topic and thinking through a number of the implications, and then a chance with the LBT missionaries to process that together afterwards and hear from them. And so this is an ongoing conversation. And so as we’re thinking through it, just processing what benefits are there, and then what are the new issues that come up? Whenever there’s a change in technology, there’s new issues that it now raises. And so are we thinking about those and what do we do with that? 

09:08
Rich Rudowske
All right. Yeah, so we’re going to take a little detour there and just kind of say broad picture technology. We were talking before we turned on the tape here, which is not the technology we use. But anyway, before we started recording about this long standing statement, which goes that the medium is the message that was first coined by a guy named McLuhan in a book he wrote in 1964 and has been used to mean a lot of different things. But basically, when we take kind of a step back and think about technology the way he defined it, and again, this is like 60 years ago, but still, it would hold pretty true, is that essentially any kind of technology is an extension of a human being or the human mind. 

09:45
Rich Rudowske
And the message that comes in any particular medium of technology, and he’s really focused more on communication, but the message is not just what people here communicated, but ultimately the effect that communication has, which is wrapped up in more than the communicative event or part of speech itself. But the overall effect that the technology has on a person is the effect of technology, and that is the message. And so just kind of as a framework, and we’re still framing out in Lutheran Bible Translators how we want to evaluate technology. But a framework he proposes is looking at a medium, a technology and asking some questions about what it does. I’m going to talk about that real quick. And I’m actually just referencing his article and then using Zoom as an example because I think that’s going to be familiar for all of us. Right? 

10:39
Rich Rudowske
Like, gosh, it’s late 2023. So four years ago at this point, I would get on a Zoom call if SIL scheduled a meeting with us because they were using Zoom. But it was like kind of a niche thing. And all of a sudden, Zoom is like everybody’s life now, right? So Zoom we’re all familiar with. So the questions that are asked by technology and by McLuhan is, okay, if a technology extends or enhances human function, what does it enlarge or enhance? Well, Zoom extends our ability to speak and see people across distance. Like, that is something that it does, and it’s instantaneous. All right, so that’s one question is, what does it enhance? The next question is, what does it erode or make obsolete? Or in McLuhan’s language, what does it amputate? If we think about. 

11:23
Paul Federwitz
That’s a really strong word, but I think it’s relevant. 

11:25
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. So Zoom decreases the frequency of travel, it decreases the demand for physical, centralized workspaces, access to social and behavioral cues, minimizes senses like touch, taste and smell. So those are all things to consider. The more you use zoom, the less you do those things. And some of those could benefits, but some of those are also losses. And so it’s just an evaluative process of what is lost. That’s an important question, because a lot of the conversation about new technology is often, what do we gain from this? But it’s important to pay attention to what might we think. 

12:02
Paul Federwitz
You know, when you talk about Zoom, it’s very relevant even to me being here right now, that I am based in Ethiopia most of the year, and I’m able to do that because of technologies like Zoom. But because of what is lost, it’s also important for me to come here and be in person a couple of times a year. So just very relevant to the way that we’re doing this right now. 

12:24
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. And so on the flip side of what is lost, what is retrieved, so maybe things have been lost and a technology comes in and makes it possible again. So the pandemic, this is why Zoom was a thing, because there was the loss of the ability to communicate with folks and to see people, and Zoom really filled that in. It allows you to revive relationships that were neglected and to have a different means of communication. Besides audio only, it’s important to see people’s faces. Right? And that’s an example of something that’s retrieved. Then the reversal is what he says, but what he means by reversal is when this thing is overused or overextended. So what kind of gets turned on its head? And almost anything that’s good in overuse can have a negative effect. And so, looking at technology. 

13:18
Rich Rudowske
So, again, Zoom, the immediate answer that comes to mind with that is Zoom fatigue. So Zoom is good. It’s good to make those connections. It’s great that in the absence of being able to travel or to enhance or supplement those in person things, you can see people and stay connected. But too much people talk about Zoom fatigue, which is still a phenomenon being studied. Right? But it’s so much time alone, seeing people only on screens. And this dynamic of seeing yourself on the screen is also thought to be a factor. And part of the medium is the message. The message changes just because you normally can’t see yourself when you’re talking, but here you can, and that makes a difference. So those are some broad categories about how one might evaluate technology. 

14:00
Rich Rudowske
That was suggested by the author of this article, who kind of coined this idea in the first place of let’s be cognizant of what technology is, and not just kind of let the tide and the current of technology and culture just sort of take you along uncritically. Having said that, I find in our space, being critical and being a doomsdayer are like, they’re so close to each other, and so to stand in a position of wanting to find the positive, but also wanting to say, let’s be responsible, it’s a tough place to be sometimes. And there’s a lot of folks that would like to see technology just like, why aren’t you just jumping on all over this thing? But there’s a reason why. In Bible translation, I think a critical piece is Bible translation is communication. Communication involves language. 

14:50
Rich Rudowske
Language is very personal part of people. And so understanding the use of technology, especially with translation, and then especially with Bible translation, really, the caution and the reason that we have a conversation and don’t just jump in uncritically is because there are people involved, and there’s God’s Word involved. So any thoughts on that? Yeah. 

15:12
Paul Federwitz
One of the things that’s so important to us is valuing the people that we work with. And I think that’s one of the things that I think about with this, is that if you’re looking at just translation itself and you’re talking about AI and translation. It can seem very simple that if you think about translation as just replacing this word with that word, it’s like, well, yeah, a computer can do some of those things, but the idea here is that we’re not doing translation for people, we’re doing translation with people, and we value them and their input and their involvement in the entire process. And so this becomes a bigger question. That’s actually not even a question for us to answer even as we talk about this. This is not LBT’s response to AI. This is our thought process. 

15:57
Paul Federwitz
And as we’re talking about internally, but even as we work with each language community, bringing them into that conversation as well as a part of this. 

16:07
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. And so what do you think some of the facets of that communication are that need to be paid attention to? Does that make sense? It’s kind of like Bible translation work and ministry in general, but this is not just sort of a matter of supply and demand. And so there’s a demand in this area that we can build the supply. And so you’re just going to kind of come in and build your supply factory of Bible translation. There’s people involved. And so to come along and say, we’ve got a solution for you, we’ve got technology for you. What would you predict, maybe are some of the conversations or difficulties? 

16:43
Paul Federwitz
I think there’s a number of things with that. One is just processing through, what does this mean? Like, what is it that’s actually doing the translation? How does that affect things? Another thing that’s been really a key part of the conversation lately, in translation, we talk about it being accurate, natural, and clear, that’s three things that are key for a translation. But the other thing that has become much more discussed is acceptability of the translation. And that has even gone to a point of talking about acceptability of the translator. Okay, so is this person a person of reputable character? Does the community know who they are? In some translations, that becomes very obvious. Like a sign language translation where there’s video and you see the translator, it can be an oral translation where you hear the person. 

17:34
Paul Federwitz
But in a lot of other language communities, I mean, we’re working with some smaller communities, people know the translator. And if that person is not of good moral character, that affects the acceptability of the translation. So is AI of good moral character? How do you even answer that question when you’re working with this? And so even going back to, there are so many questions that I’m not even mentioning here, but those are kind of the ones that come to my mind right away as the community grapples with what do we do with this? And the thing that’s interesting to me is they may actually have some really great ways to process it that I’m not thinking of right now. And that’s great. I’m looking forward to that. But they have to be involved in that conversation. 

18:13
Rich Rudowske
Right. I think with all due respect to our colleagues in the Bible translation movement, and especially those who are focused on piloting work using machine assisted tools that involve AI for translation, quite a bit of work on thinking how the tool could be used and adapted in cautions with regard to data particularly. But in my mind at the present moment, not enough thought in terms of involving the community and understanding what this is, what the pros and cons and benefits or risks might be, and asking essentially permission to bringing them along and having a plan to spend the time and being willing to substantially adjust what may happen or may not happen using technology. I feel like there’s a lot right now of conversation about like, we’ve got a great plan. 

19:09
Rich Rudowske
We just need to convince people to use our plan and try it out. And so, again, with all due respect to folks who may be listening, I hope as an organization we will bring in, as we tend to do, the realities of community engagement and to advocate for the real personal stuff that needs to happen. And not just sort of a product orientation or a production orientation. 

19:33
Paul Federwitz
I want to take a step back there, actually, and kind of maybe unpack a little bit what exactly is involved in translation. When you look at it, I mentioned before, it’s not just finding one word and replacing it, but it’s really understanding what is the source text, what is being said, what is the context around that? And then working with the community and having them involved in this process. And then you’re looking at, well, looking at the local language, what is the context there? And then really the goal of this is not actually Bible translation. The goal is that people fully engage with God’s Word. 

20:08
Rich Rudowske
Right. 

20:08
Paul Federwitz
And so when you take all those different pieces and then kind of apply this conversation to that, I think as we’ve been talking about AI, we might be hinting a little bit more towards talking about drafting, but there’s a lot of different parts to what machines can help out with. And so we can kind of dig into that a little bit more. But I think just kind of zooming back out and talking about what are all these different parts, and then thinking about how does this apply to those different parts one of the things that came up a number of times in conversations recently is this idea that a translation is not just a product, it’s a process. It’s a ministry in and of itself. 

20:46
Paul Federwitz
As people go through that process, whether it’s the translators, as they’re studying the text, or as they’re doing community review, or as the community is involved with it, there’s a ministry that’s a part of that. And so if we zoom back out from translation and talk about it as a process and a ministry, again, that has an effect on our conversation, rather than just talking about it as an end product, that the goal is the text that comes out of it. 

21:14
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. And then maybe even a step back further from that is the goal of ministry. Of course, from the eternal perspective is eternity with Christ. But in this life perspective, to gather people together into communities of followers of Christ is also an intended goal of any ministry. And I think that also changes the conversation about the ways and means of doing that. It’s just good to keep on the radar, and it’s a corrective for specialized Bible ministries, of which we are one, to keep in mind that there’s a bigger picture for all of this, that the church on earth to accomplish her God-given mandate, to reach those around her, and to disciple those who follow Christ into a deeper relationship with this earth, to give hope and peace in this life and for eternity, these are the reasons that these things happen. 

22:07
Rich Rudowske
So when we talk about the end goal is deeper engagement in scripture, it’s for those things. And so once you start to really unpack that, then you say, okay, those are worthy goals. And if technology can be used in service toward those goals at a cost, that’s acceptable, I guess that’s okay. But you start to be concerned about what the cost is and being sure that those goals remain in mind. And I was reading an article about technology recently where the author said, and this kind of broad strokes, but evangelical Christians, which by and large is, I mean, we get lumped. We kind of have one foot in and one foot out of that as Lutherans. But evangelical Christians, in general, are pretty quick to adapt technology and look for the utilitarian use of it without being overly concerned about the risks. 

22:58
Rich Rudowske
And I would say as a Lutheran, even though for other things, we kind of have feet, I think we have both feet in that camp in terms of like, that’s how Lutherans basically adopt technology, too. Yeah, it’s just good to be aware of that. And that’s a pattern. I mean, I have an Epiphany sermon by C.F.W. Walter that’s like 160 years old, and he’s preaching about technology in his sermon. He’s talking about steamboats and stuff like that, right? And he says, even then, people create these technologies thinking that it’s for their earthly gain of wealth and things like that, but they also serve as a highway for the Gospel. 

23:35
Rich Rudowske
So even he was really always looking for, if there’s going to be something that’s good, can it be used in service to the Gospel, that’s not a bad thing, but to adopt it with looking at the whole holistic picture. And so with that, I kind of wanted to have us talk a little bit about artificial intelligence and just like, what is it exactly? That is artificial intelligence. So I see you’ve got some good notes here. I’m going to just drop my one little drop of dangerous knowledge here. I’ve got a good friend who I asked, can you tell me, he was involved in data aggregation, like, his whole career, and sold a big company and stuff like that. Isaac, can you just tell me, like a regular guy, what’s artificial intelligence? 

24:16
Rich Rudowske
And in one sentence he said, well, it’s high speed pattern recognition technology, and maybe a little bit oversimplified, but also that just makes it seem so much more accessible that ultimately it’s computers doing what computers do is finding patterns and executing on them. But you’ve got a little bit more to say about that. Yes. 

24:37
Paul Federwitz
I like what you just said there, that it’s computers doing what they do. It’s really anything that you would think would take some thought. And now the computer is doing it for you. So being back in the US just for a couple of weeks and having a rental car and so driving a vehicle that’s very different than the vehicle that I drive in Ethiopia, which is a 4 x 4, that’s about 15 years old, everything manual. And then getting into a car here, and we think of AI and driving as like, oh, the car is a self-driving car. But the reality is it’s like all the little dings that’s like, I get a little bit too close to the lane marker and the car starts dinging at me. 

25:12
Paul Federwitz
You get a little close to the car in front of you, and the cruise control slows you down to match them. I feel like every time I do that, I kind of go through that process of like, why is this thing trying to control me? And then usually about an hour later down the road, I’m like, it’s so much easier to drive, right? It’s taking care of some of these things that I don’t now have to do. And so seeing that place where the technology is stepping in to help, hopefully without too many big dings and everything like that are annoying, but just kind of walks alongside you. I mean, even simple things like how long have we had spell check and grammar check in Microsoft Word? That it’s just like, well, yeah, that’s what a word processor is supposed to do. 

25:55
Paul Federwitz
But when we’re working with translation projects and we’re working with languages that have not really been written down before, suddenly spell check is a big issue. Being able to have something that’s helping watch that for you is a huge help to the translators. That is not something that’s available. I’ve spent years working with translators, trying to set up Paratex, the translation software and helping them set up things like spell check and things like key terms, some terms like salvation, where you should expect that every verse that references that should be consistent in what word is used there. And that’s something that we have to set up manually and then set up things like all the rules about the different ways that the word could show up. 

26:39
Paul Federwitz
You set that all up manually and now looking at tools that can kind of watch the text as you go, starts watching for that and starts alerting the translator that looks like you do this. Yeah, that verse probably should have had this word, and I’m not seeing it. Sometimes that waits to a consultant check. And this isn’t to replace the consultant, but if the translator is able to do some of that before they get to the consultant check, how much more can the consultant check? Dig into some more cultural issues or deeper issues rather than worrying about spell check. 

27:15
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. And to just sort of be the devil’s advocate for a second on that whole spell check example is to talk in terms of the categories we talked about. Well, what is that limit? Now, if a language might have a couple of different ways of talking about salvation based on a situation or nuance, if you just kind of blindly follow the spell check or the AI generated example, you lose that nuance and thus you lose some naturalness in language. And so, yeah, it’s finding the sweet spot of the human being interface and the technology. And maybe it’s oversimplifying, but at a certain point also saying, well, who’s the boss here? 

27:51
Paul Federwitz
Well, it’s like, okay, going back to what I was talking about with the driving, it’s like it’s alerting me that the lane marker is coming up. I’m getting a little bit too close, it might nudge the steering wheel to push me back in. But if I’m going to change lanes, I’m going to go. And so still leaving that up to the translator to make that decision. Like, no, in this situation, we really do want to talk about it here, but just being alerted to the fact that we are doing it differently than we did somewhere else. 

28:18
Rich Rudowske
So I see you’ve got some ideas about the type of AI. I don’t know if you want to dig into that or the rule based and neural networks as little or as much as you want to say about that. But that key point is, regardless of those, there’s an important aspect of AI that has to really be considered. 

28:36
Paul Federwitz
Yeah, so AI, I mean, I am not an expert in AI, and so there’s a number of different ways that it can be done. Some of the traditional methods would be a rule based system where you kind of set up like win this, then that type of a thing. It’s more complex than that, but a simple model you have that it’s not quite as powerful, but you can follow back. Like, these are the rules that are in the system and you can understand how did it get from point A to point B? More recently, there’s been a lot of stuff with neural networks which works a little bit more like a human brain does, and it’s watching a lot of different text and it’s making some of these decisions. It’s kind of figuring things out and then working with that. 

29:15
Paul Federwitz
It’s harder for the human working along with it to see how did it get from A to B. Right. It might be correct on B 90% of the time, but it’s hard to be able to draw a line back and say, well, that’s how it got to B, which means that when there’s a problem, it’s going to take a little bit more work to figure that out. But in either of these cases, there is training that needs to be done. This isn’t like, well, it would take us a long time to train a person to do this, but we can have a computer set up and doing it next week. 

29:47
Rich Rudowske
There are some negative outlooks on where this is all leading, that people then really want to put the brakes on the whole thing. If people are afraid of something happening in Bible translation, like what might it be? What’s the way to engage? 

30:01
Paul Federwitz
Well, we’ve talked about the involvement of people all along the way and thinking of this not as the pilot taking over, but as the copilot walking alongside whenever we have that type of a situation that it’s like, how are we using these tools to support the translator and support the community? How are we using these tools to create a better quality translation that’s continually giving feedback, but it’s still a human that’s always the one that’s making that decision. One of the things that we haven’t really gotten into up until now is the role of the Holy Spirit. 

30:38
Rich Rudowske
Yes. 

30:39
Paul Federwitz
And this is so key when we look at translation, that we are dependent, the translators are dependent on the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. And as they’re reading that text, any part of the translation process, as they’re working with the team, as they’re working with the community, we are dependent on the Holy Spirit working in among that process. And that’s a thing that really also has to be grappled with here as we’re thinking about where does technology get involved in this? Is not forgetting that importance. 

31:13
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, that’s a key point. I think I’d want the listeners to know that we really feel like theological implications of this sort of technology haven’t been as well addressed as they could be or at least thought through. And that’s something that we’re looking to see what the greater church has already been wrestling with and also specifically in this task of Bible translation that people have thought as they’ve wrestled theologically. But, yes, the role of the Holy Spirit, the role of the acceptability of the person and the translator from a theological perspective. Right. Nobody takes their Bible in any language and refers to it as well. I opened up my English translation of the Bible today and read it. We consider them all to be the inspired Word of God, that God’s Word is inspired even in its translated forms. Right. 

32:05
Rich Rudowske
Which it’s kind of an awesome in the older sense of the word, like scary thought. And God uses fallen, broken human beings and part of that, thus even more the reliance on the Holy Spirit. So that’s a great call. I think the challenge and the opportunity that we face as leaders in this organization and in ministry, along with all of our colleagues, is to recognize some of the cautions, but also to look for the opportunity to say, is there something good about this technology that can be used in service to the gospel? I mean, that’s part of the reflective model, is not only to look at what does it reverse or obsolete, but what does it retrieve, what does it enhance, and are there ways to use it effectively? 

32:48
Rich Rudowske
So in that vein, what might some uses as you sort of dip a toe into I should say the use of deeper machine assisted translation, because really, machines have been assisting us in translation in some form or another for centuries. So going to this next level, though, what are some initial thoughts in terms of what could be some good uses? 

33:09
Paul Federwitz
Yeah, I think some of the tools that I’m excited about, I’ve already mentioned things like spell check, key terms, even some tools to be able to kind of monitor naturalness, which the idea that a machine can monitor the naturalness of a language that it doesn’t understand actually still also blows my mind. 

33:26
Rich Rudowske
Right. 

33:26
Paul Federwitz
But not as a, hey, this is how you should fix it, but much more of just a realization that this book or this chapter is separate from the source language in these ways, whereas this chapter or this book is a little bit closer. And there might be reasons you want it to be closer, there might be reasons you want it to be farther. Those are decisions that have been made during the translation process. And so having a tool that can actually kind of give you some awareness of that, especially as the community is reviewing it and being able to draw out some of those things and say, does this sound good to you? Do you prefer this one or that one? That type of thing that then brings that back out to the human community and says, this is something to be aware of? 

34:13
Paul Federwitz
What do you think about it and make a decision about that? I think that’s really interesting to me. Over the weekend, having a conversation with some podcasters, and they were talking about how they use some of the AI tools that have been built in now to edit a podcast and with one click of a button, remove ums and to transcribe and that kind of stuff. And I’m even thinking like, as we do more things with oral Bible translation, and that’s a whole separate conversation, but there’s a time to have the Bible translation be oral, but then there’s also sometimes a community wants a written copy of it as well. And so now you have another step in transcribing. 

34:52
Paul Federwitz
And it’s like if you have a tool that can actually accurately transcribe the oral Bible translation, that could be something that’s really cool down the road and could really be helpful going forward. And then having a conversation with a friend who is talking about, as they use AI, to say, hey, can you summarize this article for me? Just to be able to save them some time in some of the research, not to say it’s doing the research for them, but putting some of those summary points together and then thinking through, like, talked earlier about the idea that part of that first step in translation is actually going back and understanding the context of what’s happening around the source text. And if there was a way that AI could ask it a question like, hey, can you tell me more about this? 

35:38
Paul Federwitz
And it goes out and does that research for you and comes back with some key points for you to look at. I think that could be really helpful to a lot of translators rather than having to figure out like, oh, well, I remember that tool had this and this tool over here had that resource and whatnot. But being able to bring some of that stuff together, there’s some really cool things that I think could happen there for translators. 

35:58
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, I saw a demonstration, a very early demonstration of a product. There’s a translation resources ecosystem which I think, unfortunately they changed its name now. But I really liked it when it’s called that because that’s TRE. And then they had an AI interface with it called Chat TRE. Right. And what it would do is what you just described. There’s a movement to be sure that folks that are working in ministry, especially Bible ministry, have access to resources that could help them. 

36:25
Rich Rudowske
But I guess I shouldn’t speak in terribly broad strokes here, but the folks that I worked closely with in Botswana, just having access to a bunch of books, even if they’re on Logos or whatever, still doesn’t really remove a lot of barriers because who wants to go through all those books and figure out which one you should look it up in or compare this one or that one? But the idea is all of that stuff being loaded in a machine and then you say to it, well, can you tell me more about Ezekiel’s measurements of the temple or something like that? It can just kind of verbally tell it back to you and explain that in a way that’s helpful or if that’s what you’re looking for. And then, so the ethics of that gets to like that could really remove some barriers. 

37:04
Rich Rudowske
But then the question that needs to follow that is, okay, but what information’s in there to draw from? 

37:09
Paul Federwitz
Absolutely. 

37:09
Rich Rudowske
What’s limited at that point? And yeah, are there perspectives or limitations missing if that’s the way information is accessed? Or I guess it’s more, the more you’ve talked about it and the pilot analogy keeps coming to mind, it’s not the thing itself that’s the problem, it’s the over reliance on the thing. When I fly all over the country and around the world, I mean, most of the time there is a machine flying that plane, right. But ultimately the pilot has to understand what the machine is doing and when needed, the pilot has to fly the plane. And a lot of the risk is if people kind of check out with their responsibility or stop using their own minds and being critical about what the technology is telling them. That’s where you potentially have things that we get concerned about. 

37:58
Paul Federwitz
Yes, very much so. There are some really interesting opportunities here. There are some smart people working on this that have really great intention, and we want to work with them, but we also want to be thinking along the lines of what are the ethical issues, what are theological issues that we are missing that also need to be discussed and thought through as we go through this process? 

38:20
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, absolutely. And I think keeping in mind the human being experience with it all, too, is the joy of doing the work of translation for your own language. To be the person who gets to do that, it’s awesome if the technology aids or enhances that, but you wouldn’t want to see a person lose the ability to do that. And as you said, so those are considerations. A lot of smart people working on that. As an organization, we are invested in participating in the good use of technology that does enhance the work of Bible ministry, but most importantly, that serves and benefits the language communities for whom those texts are ultimately intended, the churches for whom those texts will serve as the lifeblood for their evangelism and discipleship ministries. 

39:10
Paul Federwitz
There’s a lot that’s changing in this area. I mean, daily, the things that are changing. And so there’s a lot to be worked out, a lot to be thought through and kind of having not just a push for what can the technology do, which is exciting, but also a thought process for what is it doing that maybe was unintended, which may be good and may not be, but continuing to have that open conversation about what are the ethical aspects of this, what are theological aspects of this that go alongside of it, what is the community aspect of it, and how are we involving them in it. There’s just all these different pieces that are part of the conversation, too. 

39:49
Rich Rudowske
Yep. That’s an amazing time to be in ministry. So thanks a lot, Paul, and thanks for the conversation. Look forward to seeing where we go next. 

39:56
Paul Federwitz
Yeah, this was a lot of fun. 

39:58
Emily Wilson
Thanks. So listening in on this conversation with Rich and Paul was just awesome to be able to reflect on this gift that we have been given in scripture and the value that we have in. It’s not just let’s dive headfirst into this new technology. Let us weigh these things, let us be discerning and practice wisdom. Ultimately, this is God’s word and having the care I loved. What Paul said is it’s a process, it’s not a product, and the communities that are transformed in the middle of the process because community review takes place. 

40:46
Rich Rudowske
Right. 

40:47
Emily Wilson
And for individuals who are still grappling with, okay, we don’t know all of the effects. We don’t know all of the implications. What is going to be enhanced, what is going to be amputated and the losses and the work of the Holy Spirit. What is it that we are leaning into for this artificial intelligence and the machine assisted translation? That’s lots to unpack, lots to pray over. Really. 

41:22
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. I want to personally invite you that if you have thoughts or reflections on technology or experiences that you’d like to share or anything that you’d like to let me know about or to communicate, you could write me an email: rich@lbt.org, that’s rich@lbt.org, and I’d love to hear your feedback on the episode, any content or any thoughts that you think, hey, I feel like it would be really great if you guys were also thinking about these kinds of things. We’d love that feedback. Thank you for listening to the Essentially Translatable Podcast brought to you by Lutheran Bible Translators. You can find past episodes of the podcast@lbt.org/podcast or subscribe on Audible, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow Lutheran Bible Translators’ social media channels on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter. 

42:11
Rich Rudowske
Or go to lbt.org to find out how you can get involved in the Bible translation movement and put God’s Word in their hands. The Essentially Translatable podcast is edited and produced by Audrey Seider. Executive producer is Emily Wilson. Artwork designed by Caleb Rodewald and Sarah Rodowske. Music written and performed by Rob Veith. I’m Rich Rudowske. So long for now.