Ask a Pastor

00:00
Rich Rudowske
It asking questions and clarifying what the Bible is saying is an integral part of Bible translation ministry as well. Even in the process of translating it, people are asking questions about how is this going to be understood? How will these words come across. It just really sharpens us to be always looking at scripture from the perspective of asking questions. Welcome to the essentially translatable podcast brought to you by Lutheran Bible translators. I’m rich Friedewski. 

00:30
Emily Wilson
And I’m Emily Wilson. So it’s back to school season, and we’ve got people coming from all different parts of the world onto the St. Paul Lutheran High School campus. And with all of the people from different parts of the world come a lot of different questions. And this episode is another one of our ask a pastor is one of our most popular episodes from this past academic year. A lot of the students were able to express themselves and asking questions, hard Bible questions. And you and Pastor Lang did an excellent job that first go, being able to just tackle some of the things that were hard and heavy on their minds. So, want to share a little bit about what they’ve got lined up this week? 

01:18
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, I think it’s always a great challenge for pastors and for folks who are really kind of deep and established in the faith to hear questions from folks who are asking questions, to remind ourselves that the christian faith invites questions and we sort of get used to things and just don’t really necessarily think about everything that somebody may be asking. So these questions from students give us some insights into how is culture, how are young people looking at matters of faith and what kinds of questions they’re asking, and helps us to not be so inward focused and to think about things from different perspectives. 

01:49
Emily Wilson
You know, I was actually just thinking about this the other day as I was cooking. I had a question personally, did Jesus have a flavor? He know as I was cooking, I’m like, did he ever eat something and know I really don’t like olives? 

02:05
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, that’s a good question. If he did, it was somehow without sin, right? Yeah, somehow, yeah, that’s got to be the case. The thing I was thinking is, when we lived in Botswana, the thing I learned about folks there is when you have a much more limited choice of foods, people generally like what there is available because that is it. So it’s actually, I don’t know for sure, but it could be that being choosy about foods is one of the things you can do when you have access to more foods or more wealth to make food. So then, in that case, if Jesus was from a more normal and less affluent background than we are, then he very well may have liked everything he had, because there just wasn’t a lot of things to choose from anyways. 

02:47
Rich Rudowske
So Pastor Tom Lang was the guest with us again. This time he teaches christian apologetics and other religion classes here at St. Paul Lutheran High School and is great to sit and talk with. So with no further ado, listen into my conversation with pastor Lang on ask a pastor part two. We are back in the studio for a second round of ask the pastor with pastor Tom Lang from St. Paul Lutheran High School. Glad to have you back. 

03:15
Pastor Tom Lang
Thank you. Great to be doing this again. 

03:18
Rich Rudowske
We’re excited for the new school year starting and. Yeah, welcome back, everybody, and let’s talk a little bit about the Bible. If I was a first time reader of the Bible, what is the best or right way to read the Bible? What’s the best way to grow in faith? Reading the Bible for the first time. 

03:43
Pastor Tom Lang
It’S a great question. I’ve heard people say, start with a certain book of the Bible. Start with John, start with Romans. And I think there are definitely some books of the Bible that are easier for someone who is new to the Bible to digest than other books. Leviticus is usually the one that gets mentioned that maybe you shouldn’t start with right. But to me, it’s more important rather than where you start is just how you go about it. If you’re a believer in God and you’re encountering the Bible for the first time, then talk to God. Say, God. Show me what you want me to know in your word. If you’re not a believer in God, or maybe you’re not sure, you can still say, hey, God, I’ve got some friends who think this is your word and that you speak through it. 

04:29
Pastor Tom Lang
So if that’s true, it’d probably be good for me to know that. So help me to see you and help me be open to that. I just think that openness to possibly encountering God himself through his word is really important, and I also think it’s important to do it with somebody else, commit to reading it together, talking about it together. The christian faith is meant to be lived in relationship with other people, so our study of the Bible really should be, too. It can be really helpful to find someone knowledgeable about the Bible, a lifelong Christian who studied it a lot, maybe, or pastor or other church worker, they can help you guide, help guide you through it. When you run across parts of the Bible that are hard to understand, and there are a few of those aren’t there? 

05:14
Rich Rudowske
Yes, for sure. That’s how guys like you and I get to keep working. 

05:19
Pastor Tom Lang
Good job security. 

05:20
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, no, I mean that there’s. Of course, God’s word is eternal and God himself doesn’t change, but of course, the situations God’s speaking into go across centuries and cultures and times and places, and just by the nature of what communication is, all of that detail isn’t included in a text that you’re reading because there’s an assumption of what people already know when they were first reading it that you may need to fill in as a reader. So, yeah, there’s a lot of hard parts, for sure. Now, let’s say somebody’s listening and they heard all your advice, but they said, but I’m in my dorm room and I’ve got my Bible, and I kind of want to start out by myself. Where would you say to maybe start or not start at? 

06:01
Pastor Tom Lang
Well, I think the gospel of John is a good place. The gospel of John has been said that it’s both simple and deep at the same time. The language is pretty simple, but the concepts are pretty deep. And I’ve had, actually, some friends who have started with the gospel of John with no knowledge of the Bible at all. And in fact, one friend who got to the end and she was crying when she read about how these people killed this man, who was such a wonderful man. And so she was really intrigued with the story of Jesus as revealed in that gospel. Any of the gospels, really, you can’t go wrong with any of them, I don’t think. 

06:41
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, that’s what I was thinking, too. Is that any of the gospels, at least from our cultural background, and many folks listening, may not be christian, but still think they’ve heard something about it. And what I find is that supposed familiarity breeds some kind of distance, that if you actually get in there and just read who this guy claims to be and the things he says and the things he does, it’s surprising. It’s even, to me, surprising every time. Like, wow. And I think that’s what you encounter is Jesus in these gospels and not somebody else’s interpretation or the way that you may have heard or think you understand Jesus, but let the word testify for itself. 

07:28
Emily Wilson
Were Adam and Eve vegetarians before the fall? 

07:32
Rich Rudowske
That seems like an apologetics question, so I’ll let you go with that one. 

07:36
Pastor Tom Lang
Okay. Sure. I had the opportunity to do a dinosaur presentation at a friend’s church over the summer, and so I just had a chance to review that not too long ago. But in acts 29 and 30, bible is actually very clear. A lot of people don’t know this. A lot of long time christians don’t know this, but it says quite clearly that every living creature was vegetarian before the fall. God said, behold, I have given you every green plant yielding seed that is on the face of the earth and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. That’s to Adam and Eve that he’s talking to. 

08:14
Pastor Tom Lang
And then he goes on to talk about all the creatures and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life. I have given every green plant for food, which I guess when you stop and think about it’s kind of self evident that the little gazelle who’s getting eaten by the lion in the garden of Eden is probably not going to think about that as much of a paradise. So you would think that predatory behavior probably could not happen before the fallen to sin, because that would be pretty disturbing for the gazelle or for Adam and Eve to witness. Also, interestingly, it’s not until after the flood that God gave explicit permission for people to eat meat. 

08:53
Pastor Tom Lang
So over a thousand years after the fall into sin, although there were probably some people, maybe even lots of people, who ate meat before then. Cain had a descendant named Jabel. This is in Genesis 420. And the quote about him is, he was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. Now, it could be that Jabel raised livestock only for the milk and for other things that livestock could provide. Clothing, maybe. But I think it’s probably more likely that Jabel and maybe people he did business with probably ate the livestock before the flood. But it wasn’t until after the flood that God gave explicit permission to be able to eat meat. 

09:41
Emily Wilson
Why did God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden to tempt Adam and Eve? 

09:46
Rich Rudowske
Do you have answer for that one? 

09:50
Pastor Tom Lang
Yeah, I just gave some time to think about that for a little while. I don’t think we can point to a passage and say in the Bible and say this is why. But I think there are some principles about God that we can point to and make our best guess. In order to have a relationship with any kind of situation, any person, including God, there has to be a possibility of not relationship. God couldn’t claim Adam and Eve really love me if there’s no possibility that they couldn’t love him if they were just these God honoring robots. So I think there’s a free will aspect to what’s going on here. So love and relationship involves a choice. And the tree of knowledge of good and evil was that choice? I also feel like if you look at passages like what happened with job? 

10:43
Pastor Tom Lang
Or there’s another lesser known time when Satan came and accused Joshua. I think it’s in the book of Zechariah of made an accusation against Joshua and God rebuked him. There’s another time when Satan came and asked to basically put Peter through the wringer in the Gospel of Luke. So there’s this spiritual battle going on in the background that we don’t see between God and Satan. And I don’t know, you can disagree with me if you want, but I feel like there’s almost this set of rules going on that we only get a few glimpses of. We don’t really know a whole lot about. 

11:25
Rich Rudowske
Right. 

11:26
Pastor Tom Lang
So my personal feeling is maybe the tree of knowledge and good and evil was almost a measure agreed upon by God and Satan. Again, this is just my guess. My supposal, as C. S. Lewis put it, to satisfy some rules of spiritual battle that they were engaged in that we don’t really know. You know, Satan’s name means accuser, and maybe it went something like this. Satan brings this accusation to God and says, oh, the only reason they love you is because look at this beautiful garden you’ve put them in, and you’ve given them no other choice but to love you. And then Satan judges whether Satan or God judges whether Satan’s accusation has merit. And so God says, very well, what do you propose we do about that? 

12:13
Pastor Tom Lang
And so maybe this possibility of disobeying God with the tree of knowledge and good and evil is introduced in that situation. Again, that’s just my personal guess about what could have happened in this spiritual realm that we only get a few little glimpses of here and there in the Bible. 

12:34
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, as you said, of course, there’s no way to prove that. We can see in the opening of the book of Job something that’s exactly like what you’re describing, though, happening between God and Satan with regard to Job. So that’s possible. 

12:49
Pastor Tom Lang
And when Jesus told or warned Peter that Satan was going to put him through a trial, the wording that Jesus used is Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. So Satan had to ask permission. 

13:03
Rich Rudowske
Yep. The only other thing I thought is the wording of the question is, why did he do that? To tempt Adam. And again, in a way, the question sort of asking like, couldn’t God have just avoided this whole problem? Right? And that gets back to what we said earlier, that our ways and God’s ways are not the same and our thoughts and God’s thoughts aren’t the same. So that seems like a good idea to us, but there’s some reason why that’s not a good idea. And then in the book of James, it’s clear that no man should say when he is tempted that God is tempting me. But then it goes on to say each one is tempted by his own desire that carries him along. And then that desire gives birth to sin, and sin, when it’s fully grown, gives birth to death. 

13:45
Rich Rudowske
So something, I don’t know, because you can’t really say if this is perfect and there was perfection, but there was something in the man and the woman that somehow desired or were tempted to desire this, but that’s not from God. But ultimately it’s in the hidden area that God hasn’t chosen to reveal to us, rather just to say, this is what happened. And the more important part is his response, which is promising the woman and the man, Adam and eve, that the descendant would come and right this wrong, and while Satan would strike the heel, they would crush his head. And that’s what Jesus did for us. 

14:24
Pastor Tom Lang
And I love that about God in this situation that, let’s say it unfolded like I talked about. It may have, may not. But what ended up happening in the long run is God shows himself to be far superior to Satan. Because when is Satan ever willing to lift a finger for any human being? And so God takes care of this problem that humans sin created. And he brought a lot more glory to himself in humanity. Seeing this side of God and his willingness to sacrifice for us that we would not have seen otherwise if the fall into sin would have never taken place. 

15:02
Rich Rudowske
That’s true. 

15:03
Pastor Tom Lang
And so I think it really elevated God, as if Satan wanted to bring God down, make him look bad. What it did was, I think, just the opposite. 

15:20
Rich Rudowske
Why was it necessary for the animals to also be killed in the flood? The time before the flood talks about this real disruptive time where nothing is orderly anymore. It seems even the sons of God and the daughters of man, with all those kinds of interpretations are having some kinds of relationships that are so all this disarray. And then it says that the thought of mankind was always evil all the time in Genesis six. And so he decided basically to undo his creation. Now, that’s how I think it reads. Now, why is it necessary for the animals to also be killed in the flood. That question itself, I don’t know. Of course, God provided a way for the species of animals to be maintained in the flood. Now, of course, you just did a flood presentation, right? Is that what you said? 

16:11
Pastor Tom Lang
Dinosaurs. Dinosaurs delving into the flood a little bit. 

16:15
Rich Rudowske
Okay, well, anyways, maybe you have some thoughts on that, too. 

16:19
Pastor Tom Lang
Yeah, I think the way I read the question is, it made it sound like the judgment was on the animals, but it wasn’t. It was on the human beings. And you find in the Bible, as human beings go, so goes creation. God put them in charge of his creation and its fate. Creation’s fate is really tied to what humans do. So when humans sinned, creation was cursed. And when human rebellion against God got so bad, many years after the fallen of sin, there was only one man in his family left who believed in him. I think we talked about that maybe in the other podcast, and that was the case before the flood. So judgment came on all creation. So the animals were not guilty, they weren’t judged because of anything that they had done. But the judgment against humans affected them. 

17:11
Pastor Tom Lang
And I think that’s an important thing to remember. It’s sobering, really, to realize that my sin affects more than me as a human being. It can affect creation as a father, it can affect my children as a member of the community, it can affect other people around me. As a husband, it can affect my wife. So that’s just important to remember that I impact other people around me, not just myself, when I stray away from what God would have me do. 

17:44
Rich Rudowske
Right? And one of the promises of what God has done in Christ is that ultimately creation itself, as it says in romans eight, creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know, verse 22, that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth up until this present time. So, as you said, the creation is impacted by our sin, and also ultimately will be impacted by our redemption through Jesus as well. What does the Bible mean when it says God’s heart? There’s a lot of ways that question could be understood. One thing, of course is God is spirit and not a man. Right? So God doesn’t have physical being, except for Jesus, of course. But I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here. 

18:42
Rich Rudowske
But as a way to try to understand God, there are certainly plenty of attributes given to him that would be reserved for humanity and creatures. But to try to describe and relate to God, because God is really unknowable, again, apart from Christ. And so it’s sort of like reaching in the dark to understand who God is. And then again, when we talk about the heart, even if were talking about physicality, like you and I both have hearts, but that’s not what we’re really talking about here either. The organ that pumps blood through the body, what we’re trying to talk about is a center or a seat of emotions, which in English, we use this, the heart. And around the world, people do other things with that. 

19:22
Rich Rudowske
There’s the liver is a place like in Guatemala, one of the languages Lutheran Bible translators worked in before everything that’s heart is liver for the way they see the world. 

19:31
Pastor Tom Lang
Is that right? 

19:32
Rich Rudowske
The way they talk about it? Even in the. You know, when Jesus has compassion, it talks more specifically in the Greek about his intestines or the bowels. Okay, that sounds bad in English, but that’s what it says in Greek. So this center of emotion, so I think the Bible is trying to get at God also seems to in some way experience emotion. And even when I say that, I would caveat that with God’s not just a bigger version of people, so that the way we experience emotions is precisely what God does, just bigger. I mean, that’s kind of a trap that human thinking brings us into, is that sort of thinking, whatever I think or feel must be right or good or whatever. God thinks the same thing, just much bigger. But God says, my ways are not your ways. 

20:19
Rich Rudowske
My thoughts are not your thoughts in Isaiah. But God seems to have emotion. He has wrath and anger in the text of scripture, but in a way that is somehow still completely righteous and good, unlike human beings. And also, then he feels deep love and compassion with no self serving background or motive like we do in our sinful human state. 

20:43
Pastor Tom Lang
The passage I thought of is where God talks about his own heart. And there are probably many times, but the one that popped in my head was when he referred to David as a man after my own heart. I don’t know what the word is there in Hebrew, so God talked about that in that way. But as you mentioned, God is, I think the fancy word is anthropomorphized, right. When we give him human characteristics. So we talk about his face, his arms, other aspects of God to help us understand him. And as you said, the heart is simply talking about our emotions and not necessarily the physical one that’s pumping blood through our bodies. 

21:31
Rich Rudowske
Is it important that in the Nicene Creed, they use the word homo luscious? 

21:36
Pastor Tom Lang
Oh, I think it was very definitely important to the people at the council of Nicaea in 325, that word was really the biggest issue of all. Homo usius, which means same substance, is really what we still say today in the Nicene Creed when we say Jesus is of one substance with the father. So what’s really revealing is that the heretic Arius, which was he was the main reason the council of Nicaea was convened. He did not like that word. So that maybe indicates how important that word was. He didn’t like that Jesus and the father were the same substance because Arius taught that Jesus was a creation of God. You might think of him as a demigod type creature, like maybe Hercules compared to Zeus. So really powerful, but not on the same level as God. So Arius did not like Hamo Usius. 

22:30
Pastor Tom Lang
He was interested in using a different latin word, which was hamoi usius, which meant similar substance. So, yes, it was very important because the early church wanted to make it really clear that Jesus was true God, not that he was just kind of true God. 

22:47
Rich Rudowske
Right. So then let me ask a little bit more than the students ask, what bearing does that have today or what importance today with that term being of substance of the father? Why does it matter that Jesus is true God and true man and not just pretty much almost God? 

23:03
Pastor Tom Lang
Right. Well, there are still different groups that have that same kind of teaching today, that Jehovah’s Witnesses basically recycled ancient Arianism and repackaged it into their religion. So they believe that Jesus is actually equal to Michael the archangel. 

23:20
Rich Rudowske
Okay. 

23:21
Pastor Tom Lang
And because of that belief, since he’s not true God, our sins are not committed against him, and so he doesn’t have authority to forgive sins. So because of that, Jehovah’s witnesses believe that Jesus’sacrifice on the cross only covers original sin, but not all sins. 

23:41
Rich Rudowske
Right. And that’s a real critical point to make, I think, is that of or a major point of right doctrine is just the security that this Jesus has done, what it takes for you to be reconciled with God, because any little crack in that or doubt can arise that takes away that security. Is there such a thing as being too religious? Yeah, I’ll take that one. It’s an interesting question. There are plenty of examples of groups of people over the millennia who take parts of the Bible and really organize their life around it, but in a way that is out of balance or unhealthy. 

24:32
Rich Rudowske
And that’s what kind of the definition of a cult is, where there’s a leader who wields power over folks unfairly and really to his own advantage, which is contrary to what Christ said as an example to his disciples, that the greatest of them would be the least and would serve among them. So that’s kind of a sign. So any thoughts from you? 

24:57
Pastor Tom Lang
Yeah, I think, yes. A person could get too religious if your religion is about what you are doing. 

25:04
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, that’s true. 

25:05
Pastor Tom Lang
But I don’t think you can love Christ too much. Sure. So you can go through the motions of your religion and be very rigid about that, I think. And like you said, there have been lots of examples of cult leaders who have used their status for power and money and have abused it in a lot of different ways. But if you love Christ, that’s not going to happen. 

25:33
Rich Rudowske
I think that’s true. Yeah. 

25:34
Pastor Tom Lang
So that’s kind of how I look at it. 

25:43
Emily Wilson
How far do you think the gospel had spread before the Roman Catholic Church sent out missionaries to all parts of the world? 

25:54
Rich Rudowske
All right, so again, there’s a lot of parts to that question know are true or they assume some things. But of course it’s unknown exactly how far the gospel had spread during the time of the early church. Paul already in his letters, like in one of the letters to thessalonians, says this is the gospel that has gone out to all of the, you know, what does that mean? Is that just a hyperbole for all of the roman world or the known world or had it really gone in? There’s of course, tradition that say the twelve apostles and their followers went to different places, such as Thomas to India is a common one. I think I’m going to have this right that Matthew to Egypt and then folks from Egypt to Ethiopia. There’s evidence of a very early christian church there. 

26:46
Rich Rudowske
There’s evidence of early christian church as far away as what is now, you know, with gaps in there, so that the church has not spread continuously over the face of the earth without expansion and contraction. So, yeah, it’s kind of hard to know. And then the Roman Catholic Church started sending out missionaries. There’s a whole bunch more to the story there by the time the church is clearly identified as Roman Catholic. And then there’s subsets of the church that are more missionary focused, not unlike today’s church where there are some folks that are going and sending and others not. I don’t know. Do you have something more to add to that? 

27:28
Pastor Tom Lang
That’s outside my area of expertise. But everything you said are things that I’ve heard before and agree with, although I’m not sure when St. Francis of Assisi came along, I think he was in the eleven hundreds if I remember it. But I remember the Franciscans when I used to teach church history. Many of them gave their lives trying to share the faith in the muslim world. And when we think of Islam, we kind of think of it maybe a little bit ignorantly as a modern day issue. And yet 700, 800 years ago there were people who were bringing the faith and bringing the word of God very courageously to the muslim world. And St. 

28:16
Pastor Tom Lang
Francis of Assisi and the other Franciscans were some of my faith heroes that I learned about as I was teaching church history because I was really impressed with their dedication that they had. 

28:28
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, and the doctoral program I made for missiology. I mean I studied this big thick book about the. It’s called the barbarian conversion. But how the Europeans became Christian. And it is fascinating, but it’s also like literally 1000 year process as the church kind of expands and contracts and goes through long periods of what we call syncretism where there’s Christianity, but still traditional religion going on there as well. There’s even some evidence of that at the time of luther. Honestly, that’s what he’s still kind of going against too. But yeah. 

29:05
Pastor Tom Lang
Hadn’t some of the barbarians been exposed to Arianism too? So they were familiar with the scriptures, but then they had to get the right story, right? Yeah, so there are periods who Christ was. 

29:16
Rich Rudowske
There are periods of evangelism where some folks call it christianization, which means that these folks had some idea of Christianity but not an orthodox version of it with correct teaching. So yeah. How do you feel about christian monks who live in monasteries? 

29:42
Pastor Tom Lang
Well, I just talked about the Franciscans so I was always impressed when I learned about them. But definitely some mixed feelings about monasteries. I think it really depends on the motivation behind it. So what’s the goal of living in a monastery? For some people, they wanted to live in isolation so they could devote themselves to meditating on God. Which is when you hear that it’s not a bad thing, but oftentimes the motivation was to escape sin and that wasn’t going to work. 

30:16
Rich Rudowske
Right. 

30:17
Pastor Tom Lang
Because Jesus said it’s not what goes into a person that makes him or her unclean, it’s what comes out of the heart. And the heart is always going to be with you no matter where you go. That’s true no matter if you try to get yourself out of the world or not. Was the motivation being separate from the world? That’s not really the same heart as God. Jesus died to save the world. And he told us to go into the world to share his word. So those were maybe some bad motivations of monasteries. But there were some monasteries, of course, that were located within communities, and the monks, or as it were, maybe nuns, would be very much involved in their communities, helping the poor, teaching God’s word, basically spreading the word. 

30:59
Pastor Tom Lang
So in cases like that, where you’ve got this brotherhood of monks or sisterhood who are keeping each other accountable to live for Christ, and then you’re going out into the community to do good works, which Ephesians 210 says, God created us to do that, to me, would be the best kind of scenario for a monastery. 

31:19
Rich Rudowske
Historically, the monastery was a mission model in, again, that european expansion of Christianity. And at a certain point, after the fall of the roman empire, the Christianity was pushed almost out of Europe completely, and just in Ireland itself, where there are a few monasteries left. And that’s kind of what preserved western Christianity, and it spread back from there across Europe. But by the time of Luther, it’s important to note that quite a bit of what he writes, and I think context, that’s important even for anybody who studies how Luther was trying to reform the church and reform pastoral care. He is talking about monasteries in that case, in the negative sense, where people have used them as a motivation to try to be super christians or earn their salvation by doing certain things that have been described as holy works. 

32:14
Rich Rudowske
And it’s kind of interesting because in 21st century USA, when a lutheran pastor will say, we have to be careful against works righteousness, and then they might cite something Luther wrote about good works. Luther’s not talking about good works, meaning doing good things and saying, we shouldn’t do that. He’s talking about these good works that people say, prescribe within the monastery context and say, this is the only way to be a true christian, is to do these things. And he says, no, true Christianity is to love your neighbor and the basic stuff of the ten Commandments, to be engaged in God’s word and to serve your neighbor. Those are good work. 

32:53
Rich Rudowske
So if anybody who has ever decides to pick up Luther and read him, try to keep that in mind that he’s really talking about this situation of monasteries where people have prescribed them as a holier way to live and then a lot more. Makes sense and context. Sure. 

33:08
Pastor Tom Lang
Yeah. One of the things that I enjoyed about teaching church history, I mean, there was always the chance of corruption for monasteries because people would look at them as kind of super christians, and so then they would donate a lot of money to them. And then there goes that vow of poverty out the window. Right. But in spite of some of the issues that went on with monasticism, I think it’s cool to look back and see how God used monasteries, even the ones that kind of missed the point of, you talked about how it was kind of a mission model, but many of them didn’t kind of miss that point. But yet monasteries helped preserve a lot of learning. They helped preserve a lot of books. They made copies of Bible manuscripts. 

33:55
Pastor Tom Lang
So God used them for his purpose, in spite of the fact that many were a little misguided, which should be comforting for all of us. Absolutely. 

34:05
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. 

34:05
Pastor Tom Lang
Because we never get it quite right. 

34:06
Rich Rudowske
Right. God does not need a perfect situation, apparently, to make things work. He has, for whatever reason, in his wisdom, decided to work through fallen human beings. And while we struggle and often fail to get it right, he still works through these imperfect vessels. 

34:30
Emily Wilson
What do you think about gay people and how can love be wrong? 

34:36
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, I think this is another issue that I would be surprised if it wasn’t raised. It’s an important one in the civic discussion right now. So, yeah, there’s a couple of parts there, so I’ll let you kind of take it how you want. What do you think about gay people? How can love be wrong? 

34:52
Pastor Tom Lang
Well, I think the first thing that we want to emphasize is that Christ loves all people. And if I am following Christ, then I love all people as well. And that includes people who have different beliefs and different lifestyles than I do. So that’s very important that we recognize that no matter what the differences may be, we, as believers in Christ, we don’t have the option not to love. We must make that choice to love. And many times it does have to be a choice. There are times when I meet somebody and the way that they live their lives, and I’m not just talking about the gay community, I’m talking about any kind of thing really bothers me. 

35:44
Pastor Tom Lang
And I have to choose to love that person because Christ loved me, even though I’m sure the way I live my life bothers him as well. But with that in mind, we need to balance that with the truth of what God’s word says. And I go back to creation. God created people, male and female, and said, be fruitful and multiply. So his plan for the world is male female relationships. Now, I always think of it like maybe some great thing that somebody sent to me. I have no idea what it is, but it’s got instructions inside. I need to use those instructions in order to get the most out of what this thing may be. And God is the creator of the universe. He knows how his world works best and he knows how mankind works best. 

36:38
Pastor Tom Lang
And his plan for humankind is male female relationships. And his word tells us that he loves us. So then I have to trust that people will be living the best life God has to offer them if they do that, if they do it the way that God says. So I don’t doubt that homosexual couples sincerely love each other, but God, who knows everything, doesn’t have in mind for two men or two women to have a sexual relationship, right? Heterosexuality is his best plan for humanity. And I think you just have to trust him in that. I don’t know how that’s going to play out for each person who feels same sex attraction. I can’t guess how their lives will better if they don’t give into that and they go with God’s plan. But I trust that it will better because I trust God’s plan. 

37:30
Pastor Tom Lang
And I think that’s what it comes down to is trust in God, that his plan for humanity is the best because he’s created us. 

37:47
Rich Rudowske
After Jesus’resurrection, is he able to hold water in his hands? The question is, okay, so Jesus has been crucified and he has holes in his hands now, right? So, you know, are those holes still there? 

38:02
Pastor Tom Lang
Are they still there? Yeah. 

38:04
Rich Rudowske
Is another way of understanding the question. And we do know that when Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples that same evening, and then the following week, he invited them to put their hands in his side and touch the holes in his hands. There’s plenty of, I’m thinking that’s also mentioned in revelation, but it’s not coming to mind directly. Certainly christian imagery. 

38:28
Pastor Tom Lang
And the lamb that was slain through. 

38:30
Rich Rudowske
The ages talks about the lamb is slain, his wounds and by his wounds that were healed. So can he hold water in his hands? I think Jesus can do anything he wants to, but his wounds are still there. He’s somehow recognizable but not recognizable. That’s another interesting thing about the resurrected Jesus is that it seems like sometimes folks don’t recognize him right away, somehow he’s also different, but he still carries that humanity and those wounds with him as well, it seems. 

38:58
Pastor Tom Lang
Don’t skeletons of crucifixion victims suggest that the nails were driven into their wrists? 

39:05
Rich Rudowske
That is true. 

39:06
Pastor Tom Lang
Anyway. Their hands would still be intact. 

39:10
Rich Rudowske
That’s true. Yeah, that’s one. We’ll encourage everyone to have faith in Christ and go to heaven so that you can find out for yourself. 

39:20
Pastor Tom Lang
There you go. Perfect. 

39:28
Emily Wilson
Why didn’t Mary and Joseph stay at Joseph’s parents’house when they went to Bethlehem? 

39:34
Rich Rudowske
Okay, so why didn’t they stay at Joseph’s parents’house? I believe this is in reference to at the time of Jesus birth. We could understand it different ways than. 

39:46
Pastor Tom Lang
Oh, that makes sense. 

39:48
Rich Rudowske
So, yeah, I think this is interesting. We don’t know where Joseph’s parents lived exactly. All right, so Joseph, at the time that he’s engaged to Mary, lives in Nazareth, but this decree comes out from Caesar Augustus that everybody needs to go and get counted for a census, and you’re supposed to go to your ancestral home to do that. So he’s got to go down to Bethlehem to do that. Like, if his parents lived in Bethlehem, maybe they did. Maybe they did. We don’t know. The imagery that I think in western Christianity we often have now is this stable separate from. Well, some people think it’s like, in the back part of a hotel the innkeeper sends him to. There’s no actual innkeeper in the Luke story, right. 

40:33
Pastor Tom Lang
There’s no room in the inn. 

40:34
Rich Rudowske
There’s no room in the inn, or there’s no guest. And linguistically speaking, Luke, who writes the Christmas story that we’re all familiar with, where there is no room for them in the inn. He was born in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. In the story of the Good Samaritan, he talks about an inn there where Jesus character, the good Samaritan, puts the injured guy in an inn. And there’s a certain word he uses there for that. An actual hotel like place. Right. The word that’s used in Luke two is not that same word which Luke had available to use. 

41:10
Pastor Tom Lang
Right. 

41:10
Rich Rudowske
The word that he has. There is a guest room, like a guest room where the disciples stay when Jesus heals, Peter’s mother in law later on in Luke, it’s that kind of thing. And so the idea is that they’re staying with relatives, and there are guest rooms in this house, but there’s so many people in town that those guest rooms are also full. So they have to go on the main layer. There’s an enclosed place where animals are kept, also in the house, but in their own area. But of the house and in that main area where the animals are kept, that’s where they have to be at. And they have to use a manger for a bed that are in the animal stable area, but it’s part of the house. The way that houses are built back, so that’s possibly what happened. 

41:57
Rich Rudowske
So it is possible they were with Joseph’s parents. And that does actually then make it make sense, although you got to understand that you’re switching to a different gospel author. But in Matthew’s gospel, when the magi show up, they come to a house, right, and it’s believed, well, still in Bethlehem, and it could be up to two years after Jesus was born. But they’re in a house, maybe at the same house that they’ve been at the whole time. With family, it’s unknown, but at least it fits a little better that way. 

42:25
Pastor Tom Lang
I just assume that Joseph was a pretty, if he’s chosen to be a stepfather of the son of God, I assume he’s probably a pretty resourceful guy. 

42:35
Rich Rudowske
Right. 

42:35
Pastor Tom Lang
And so he’s going to find good lodgings for them to be in. Can I just air a little pet peeve, a little grievance here? I hear sometimes devotional books or preachers talking about Jesus being laid in a dirty manger. I think that kind of does a disservice to Joseph and Mary. 

42:57
Rich Rudowske
Sure. 

42:59
Pastor Tom Lang
I think we can assume that they cleaned the manger. 

43:02
Rich Rudowske
I would think so. 

43:03
Pastor Tom Lang
That they put fresh hay in there, if he did lay on a bed of hay, that they did everything that they could to give their baby the best that they possibly could, like any new parents would do who loved their newborn baby. 

43:19
Rich Rudowske
Absolutely. That’s a good point. I do think, and I sometimes joke about this, if you listen to LBT’s Christmas podcast, I made a little reference to this, that at the same time Jesus was born in an era of history that’s not very clean and not very nice. And so I think the angel saying, are sure you want to send him at this time? But anyways, I think you’re right, though. These parents know that this kid is like all kids, first of all is special, but then they have some sense that this is the son of God in some way that they probably don’t get. And I’m sure that they take really good care of them. 

44:01
Pastor Tom Lang
Yeah. An area that’s not very clean. So I can imagine them going, it’s just dirt. 

44:07
Rich Rudowske
Right? 

44:08
Pastor Tom Lang
Dirt was around all over the place. 

44:10
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, that is true. 

44:17
Pastor Tom Lang
You. 

44:18
Rich Rudowske
If we know that God will forgive us, why do we need to worry about not sinning? Can’t God just forgive us later? 

44:26
Pastor Tom Lang
You know, when I think about that, I think about my relationship with my wife. My wife has committed to stay married to me in all situations. And so that if I take that marriage vow the wrong way, I can say, well, I can do pretty much anything that I want. And she has vowed to be faithful to me, so I’m going to hold her to that. Well, that’s kind of missing the point of what a marriage relationship is supposed to be like. And so if somebody would approach their faith in God in that way, it would show kind of a failure to grasp God’s character and our proper relationship with him. So it kind of makes God seem like a cosmic rulemaker and who’s getting in the way of my fun instead of God, who wants me to have life and have it abundantly. 

45:19
Pastor Tom Lang
And ultimately it means eternal life. But he also wants me to have an abundant life, not in terms of lots of money or anything, but in terms of living out my purpose most fully on this earth. So instead of thinking, why should I worry about sinning, God’s just going to forgive me. The thinking of someone who knows and loves God and really knows who God is should be, God loves me and that’s why he wants me to stay away from sin, because it’s going to hurt me in more ways than I know. And so I want to stay away from sin too, a, because I love God and I want to do what he wants me to do, and b, because I know it’s bad for me. 

45:58
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, sometimes. I’ve talked about this before as not just Christianity but religions in general, the impulse for human beings to find loopholes, to see basically, like, how close can I get to something that I’m not supposed to do and still be okay. And that whole loophole mindset is not really compatible with how scripture talks about our relationship with God. So if we’re asking ourselves what’s a way I can do what I want to do and still be okay? A better question is, because of the deep, compassionate love that God has poured out abundantly upon me, overflowing in my life, what does love require of me? What does it look like to respond to that love, both towards God but really towards my neighbor? Because that’s how I show my love for God. 

46:53
Rich Rudowske
In one, John, chapter three talks about how we love our neighbor, shows how we love God. In a sense, then, if that’s really at the core and center of our understanding about our relationship with God, then these kind of loophole questions really don’t have a place, right? 

47:10
Pastor Tom Lang
And don’t you think there gets to be a certain point where if a person starts to take God’s forgiveness for granted in that way, they get to kind of a dangerous place in their faith. 

47:21
Rich Rudowske
Yes, I think that’s true. There’s passages in Exodus, passages in Romans where that talks about a hardening of heart in a sense that it’s not really explained. Like, here’s how you understand this to happen. It doesn’t do that in the Bible. It just describes that it eventually happens. The continual rejection of the word of God, in a sense, eventually leads to a place where your heart becomes hardened and you can’t respond to the word of God anymore. And so I would like to think, yeah, that sin is that thing. I had a pastor when I was younger who talked about sin. Just think of it as sitting on the table. It looks like a glass of water, but it’s a glass of poison. And God would be like, just don’t touch it. It looks harmless. 

48:03
Rich Rudowske
But we just, in ways that we can’t even see, will be deeply harmed by it. So there’s lots of different ways to look at it. But sure, yeah, I think ultimately that constant taking it for granted, which is essentially rejection of God’s word and God’s word not just as laws, but God’s will for us because he knows what’s best for us. It can put us in a bad place. 

48:24
Pastor Tom Lang
God’s word and the natural law of God written on our hearts as well. 

48:28
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. 

48:35
Emily Wilson
How can a loving God send people to hell? 

48:38
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. This one is, again, a question that, it’s troubling, really. And there are several ways to go about answering it. And like this one, for example, could sound flippant, and I don’t mean it, but I mean it to be flippant, I guess. But in one way, God sends no one to hell. We are on our way there apart from God because that’s how we are by nature. We are separated from God. So he’s not sending us to hell. We are just on our way and he’s making a way to reconcile us to himself. 

49:11
Pastor Tom Lang
Isn’t it, John 317 that says that we stand condemned already? 

49:16
Rich Rudowske
Right. 

49:16
Pastor Tom Lang
So God condemns no one. We are in a state of condemnation because of our sinfulness. 

49:23
Rich Rudowske
Right. God did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world. 

49:26
Pastor Tom Lang
To save the world. 

49:28
Rich Rudowske
But any other thoughts? I mean, this is a question that’s almost a decade ago now was a big question in american Christianity. 

49:35
Pastor Tom Lang
Oh, sure. Yeah. I also thought it was interesting how C. S. Lewis went about it. Maybe I don’t remember where I read it. It might have been mere Christianity. C. S. Lewis kind of looked at it as people really create their own hell by them for themselves by their rebellion and disobedience against God. And God, finally and very reluctantly, and this is a quote from C. S. Lewis, seconds their motion and says, not in spite, but in sorrow, have it your way. So hell is what people have done for themselves by refusing the presence of God in their lives, is the way C. S. Lewis looked at it. I thought that was kind of interesting. And I also like to think of it in terms of just spiritual reality. 

50:23
Pastor Tom Lang
Once again, in comparing holy God to sinful people, if I stare at the sun, I’m going to go blind. It’s not because the sun is mean. It’s because my eyes and the sun’s intense light, they can’t meet in that way. Or if I touch a high voltage electrical wire, I’m going to be electrocuted. Not because the wire is mean or has anything against me. It’s just the way it is. And so people who are still in their sins and have not had their sins forgiven by Christ cannot be with God, who is perfectly holy. They must be away from him for eternity. And that’s just the way it is. That’s spiritual reality. 

51:05
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. And I think it’s also important to mention that for the Christian, as for God himself, and of course, God is able to perfectly do this and genuinely, with deep compassion, desires that no one would go to hell. But I think even for the follower of Christ, this is not anything that we have any joy in, that anyone would go to hell, and that if God would at some point reveal that there is some way that nobody has to go to hell, we would all rejoice in that, right? 

51:34
Pastor Tom Lang
Oh, definitely. 

51:36
Rich Rudowske
There’s no real room or place for us to desire that for anybody. But as far as we can tell, and there’s folks who have talked about that, scripture really doesn’t get into many details about hell. If you really look at the whole testimony of scripture and what Jesus talked about and everything, there’s not a lot there. But the fact of the matter is there seems to be some eternal judgment and separation for anyone who rejects God, finally. And that is a fact that we all lament and that, I think are motivated to share God’s love and to share the message of the gospel to the extent that God desires to work through that people won’t. 

52:18
Rich Rudowske
But ultimately, I think the gospel is less about how to stay out of hell, and then it is about how to have a relationship with the creator of the universe, who loves you deeply and desires nothing more, that you would be in his presence for eternity even Francis peeper, for the you Lutherans out there who really are deep into stuff, know kind of a crusty old german theologian. He says the best thing we can know about hell is know not to study it in deep, but just know that there’s a way you never have to know anything about it, and that’s by your faith in Jesus Christ. 

52:54
Pastor Tom Lang
Yeah, well put. Good job, peeper. 

52:58
Rich Rudowske
All right, so thanks to all the students from St. Paul Lutheran High School who gave us questions and put us through the wringer to think. We hope that you’ve been blessed by this time. And, Pastor Lang, I want to thank you for also being with us and sharing your thoughts. 

53:14
Pastor Tom Lang
Yeah, that was fun. I enjoy thinking about questions like that. And of course, what I teach, apologetics, is all about answering questions about the faith. So this is right up mile. I appreciated the opportunity. 

53:27
Rich Rudowske
Thank you. Christian faith gives us God’s always looking and open to questions and, yeah, to hear those things, to hear the concerns of our hearts, and at a certain point maybe to say, hey, that’s just too much for you to know. But there’s a lot between not having any questions answered and when you reach that point. Well, thanks for being with us today. 

53:51
Emily Wilson
So they really didn’t hold back, did they? They had some really intense questions, some that were a little bit more fun, like that idea of were Adam and Eve vegetarians before the fall. That can be a little bit fun, but you can also really tackle that. And what does that mean? But I think that it really just shows how important it is to be able to answer questions and to be real and to not assume that we all have the answers perfectly laid out. Even if we’re new to the church or if we’re longtime members, we’re called to build a bridge and to be able to engage in conversation. 

54:33
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. And as I’ve said many times before, I think Lutheran Bible translators being located on this high school campus just enriches us a little bit more because it gives us access to students, to young folks from all over the world who are also wrestling with matters of faith that are being presented to them in school. And several of them, of course, live here on campus. So they’re kind of doing life and figuring out things. And that is always going to prompt you to ask more questions and really asking questions and clarifying what the Bible is saying is an integral part of Bible translation ministry, as well as the scripture is translated. Even in the process of translating it, people are asking questions about how is this going to be understood? How will these words come across? 

55:13
Rich Rudowske
And what will people already have in their minds? Does that match up with what intended meaning was? And so it just really sharpens us to be always looking at scripture from the perspective of asking questions. We want to thank the students who submitted questions again and our assistants who recorded them as well, and of course, pastor Lang for joining us on this special episode. St. Paul Lutheran High School is our valued partner. They’ve been here in Concordia, Missouri, since 1883, the last of the Lutheran Church Missouri synods residential high schools serving to form young men and women for service to Christ. You can find out more about St. Paul Lutheran High School at their website, splhs.org. That’s splhs.org. Thank you for listening to the essentially translatable podcast brought to you by Lutheran Bible translators. 

55:57
Rich Rudowske
You can find past episodes of the podcast@lbt.org slash podcast or subscribe on audible, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get podcast content. Follow Lutheran Bible translators social media channels on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter. Or go to lbt.org to find out how you can get involved in the Bible translation movement and put God’s word in their hands. This episode of essentially translatable was produced and edited by Andrew Olson. Our executive producer is Emily Wilson. Podcast artwork was designed by Caleb Rotewald. Music written and performed by Rob Weit. I’m Rich Rudowski. So long for now.