Go to the Deepest Water

00:00
Bishop Andrew Gulle
When people lose hope, it is time for the gospel. It is time to plant the faith. We have seen also people who are coming to Jesus, because when people are despaired, they need encouragement. 

00:22
Rich Rudowske
Welcome to the essentially translatable podcast brought you by Lutheran Bible translators. I’m rich Rudowski. 

00:27
Emily Wilson
And I’m Emily Wilson. 

00:28
Rich Rudowske
Before we get into today’s episode, Emily, let’s say there’s somebody out there who wants to be sure they never miss an episode of essentially translatable again. What can they do? 

00:36
Rich Rudowske
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00:37
Emily Wilson
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01:12
Rich Rudowske
All right. Recently, LBT’s regional director for Southern East Africa, Jim Lash, and regional director in training, Sarah Esselo, went to Tanzania to visit partners there to introduce Sarah to the work in Tanzania. And they were able to connect us for a podcast interview with Bishop Andrew Goulet. And Bishop Gule is the bishop of the east of Lake Victoria, Diocese of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania, one of the largest lutheran churches in the world. And this particular diocese, one of the most missional, outreach oriented diocese located in a rural area with lots of outreach opportunities. Lots of opportunities or challenges to cross cultural and linguistic barriers. And so Lutheran Bible translators is proud to be partnering with the Elvd on work there. 

02:01
Emily Wilson
It’s just so inspiring to hear the stories of the church in Tanzania and their growth. And so, rather than me going on and on, let’s hear a little bit from Bishop Gule’s story. 

02:18
Rich Rudowske
We are here today with Bishop Andrew Goulet, the bishop of the east of Lake Victoria, Diocese of the Lutheran Church in Tanzania. Welcome to the podcast today. 

02:27
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Thank you. 

02:28
Rich Rudowske
So we would like to talk to you some about the ministry in Tanzania. Tell our listeners who may not know that the lutheran church in Tanzania is one of the largest lutheran church bodies in the world. And the many diocese you are bishop of the east of Lake Victoria diocese, one of the fastest growing. Tell us some about the Elvd, how much area it covers, how many churches and pastors and members you have there. Thank you. 

02:53
Bishop Andrew Gulle
The east of Lake Victoria diocese started 14 May 1989 with seven churches. Nowadays, the diocese is having 93 churches and 65 pastors. The members is 15 million members. So the diocese covers 29,000 m². 

03:22
Rich Rudowske
Very good. And so these are in the northern part of the country, obviously close to Lake Victoria. And these areas are mainly rural areas. 

03:31
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Yeah, we have one city, Manza City, but the rest is a small town and luro area. The big area is Luro area, where the people depending on small farming and keeping cows and sheeps. So that is the activity and fishing. 

03:55
Rich Rudowske
And how long have you been the bishop of the diocese? 

03:59
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Yeah, this year is the ten years since I was consecrated as a bishop, because I was consecrated 26 of April 2009. 

04:15
Rich Rudowske
Very good. Well, congratulations. Thank you. Long standing service. How is it that lutheranism has spread so effectively in Tanzania and particularly in the Elvd? 

04:29
Bishop Andrew Gulle
The lutheran church in eastern Lake Victoria diocese is a new church. It is started 32, 33 years ago as a diocese, but it is growing fast because we live mission. We want to do mission, so we have many techniques to do mission. First of all, each believer is committed to convince someone else to come to Jesus. As the parish, we do mission as the diocese. We have bishops team, which goes to the village to do mission, witnessing house to house. So mission is something very important in the diocese. That is why the diocese is growing. So the believers, they do mission. The parish do mission. The diocese as a whole do mission. So that is why the church is really growing. But also mission organization is supporting us. We do together to make sure we connect many people to Jesus Christ. 

05:44
Rich Rudowske
All right, so what does it mean to be a church in mission? You’re saying that every level the church is doing mission, how does the church learn that? And why do churches sometimes lose that vision? How do you keep it fresh in the Elvd? 

05:59
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Yeah, our motto is Luke, chapter five, verse four. The story about Peter, go to the deepest water, I can say. So that is our motto, to go to the luru area, to the places where the gospel is not propagated. We go there to preach physically. So the church is engaging in mission physically. We don’t really just speak. We have to do mission. The church in Eovd is growing because we have many people who are not Christian. So our motto is to reach them. So we are trying to convince them in a different way that they have to believe in Jesus. The church here in Eovd is really focusing on connecting people to Jesus, not doing other businesses. We do have other projects like schools, kindergarten or primary schools. But all this should be done in a way that people can see God’s love. 

07:17
Bishop Andrew Gulle
We use these social services as a means for mission. For instance, for the health center, when patient came to the hospital, we make sure they are treated in a way that they can see God’s love. At the last decade, some of them can decide to be follow of Jesus. That is system we are using, lady. 

07:43
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, that’s great. That holistic ministry, pointing people to Jesus. 

07:48
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Yeah. 

07:49
Rich Rudowske
So I appreciate your passion for mission and I didn’t get right to it without usually I like to have listeners get to know some about you. So let’s take a step back. Tell us some about your background, where you came from, how you got involved in ministry, and your pathway to becoming bishop. 

08:06
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Okay. I was born in a family which is not really believed in Jesus. Unfortunately, my mother died when I was a small baby. I’m the first born in the family, so my mother died when I was a small baby, so I was taken care by my uncle. So when I was in 16 years, one of the evangelists, the Rutheran evangelist, used to come to teach at religion in our primary school. I was attending and then he invited me to go to his church because were living near the Rutheran church. So I started going there and then I was told catechismu and then baptized. When I completed my standard seven primary school, he asked me to go to attend Bible school. I went there, he paid for my school fees. After two years, I completed and I became evangelist. It was 83 and 84. 

09:16
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Then I completed my Bible school training and then I became an evangelist, 85 to 86. 87, I decided to go to a private secondary school. So I went to a secondary school for four years and I completed 89, 91 I joined theological college. 91 to 95. 96 I was ordained, so I started to be a pastor. So 96 I was ordained. I was given my first appointment, so I saved as a pastor. Until then. I went back for the first degree. 2004, I completed my festive degree and then I saved as a parish pastor. 2006 I went back for my masters and I finished 2008. But unfortunately the bishop who was here was in Eovd, died 2007 November. Okay, so 2007 November, the dialysis, there was no bishop and I was in the college for my masters. 

10:45
Bishop Andrew Gulle
I completed 2008 July, they haven’t directed a bishop, so I was assigned to be a Paris pastor. 2008 and 2008 September they had the election for the bishop and I was elected as a bishop. It was by surprise because I had no any big responsibility in the diocese. I was a normal pastor. 

11:18
Rich Rudowske
Okay, yeah, sometimes the Lord just calls when you don’t expect, and then you have to answer, yeah, very good. Well, yeah, it sounds like God used a lot of those experiences, and certainly leadership in the church with a pastoral heart is a strong need. How did the Elvd get connected to Lutheran Bible translators? I have a story from my perspective, but we’ll ask your perspective first. How did the Elvd get connected to Lutheran Bible translators? 

11:49
Bishop Andrew Gulle
You know, always God has his own way. Dr. Megahan, he was the assistant to the bishop of this diocese. As I told you, the diocese started 14 May 1989. He was elected as the assistant bishop. So he saved, I think, for six years, and then he joined, I think, Ruthland Bible translators later, after some time, when he left e of D. So after a long time, I was erected as a bishop, and we had to celebrate 25th anniversary of the diocese, 2020 14. And then I have to remember who were the founder of this diocese. I tried to find the phone number of Megan and to investigate where he was. And then my driver, he was working with Megan for a long time. He told me he is in Botswana. I told, do you have his phone number? He said, yes, I have. 

12:59
Bishop Andrew Gulle
So I called. We were on the way, I think, from Darisram to Mwanza, and he responded. I told him, this year we are going to have 25th anniversary of Eovd. Can you come? As a founder of this diocese? He said, I would like to come. So when he came, I asked, where are you and what are you doing? He told me about Lutheran Bible translators, and I said, we have many ethnic groups here in EOV. Why don’t we have a project? He directed me who are responsible to receive the request. I think he was Mike who was in South Africa. So we started to communicate in the NaT. It started to work. That is how really it happened to have connection with Arabts. And then we started the project. 

14:00
Rich Rudowske
Yeah, it was really good. So, in 2014, late in the year, I went to visit Dr. Magayan in Botswana, and he had just returned from the diocese anniversary. So were sitting talking, and I said, okay, in Tanzania, there are all those Lutherans. How come Lutheran Bible translators isn’t doing any work there? And so then he said, well, let me show you something. And he pulled out the letter that came from you, saying, we have to investigate the situation there. So that was the invitation. And then, yeah, Mike and I came in the following January, and that was the beginning. That’s how God always is, making threads together. So Dr. McGahn had been gone from Tanzania a long time, but those seeds continue to grow. And new work started. So let’s talk about the situation, the need, your project goals on Kareewe island. 

14:56
Rich Rudowske
Our first partnership together is in the Kareewe language. So tell our listeners a little bit about the island and why that’s the first stop for our mission goals. 

15:06
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Kerawe area seems to be isolated nowadays. They’re at least good. We have ferries, ghosts, and coming back, but they need to be connected with Jesus. The church is still very young in Okrewa island, so this project is needed because the people speak their language. When they read the Bible which is written in their language, it will be used as an instrument to know more about God and also to be attracted. They can see that God is not for the people outside, but they will feel God also can speak with the Karewe. So this project is, as I told you, we use every project here as means of mission, as means to attract people to Jesus or to connect people to Jesus. 

16:13
Bishop Andrew Gulle
So this project is needed because it will help us to do mission, and also it will help the people to understand what ghost is talking. So the Karewe people, the island, need this project, needed the Bible. 

16:32
Rich Rudowske
So currently then, on the island, there are christian churches, but not a lot of engagement in the church. Is that the situation? Okay, so people maybe from outside Tanzania. One of the things they know about Tanzania is that Swahili is a very strong language and that many people speak it. So then they might ask, do the people on the island not use Swahili? 

16:56
Bishop Andrew Gulle
They do. They use Swahili. But normally it is when you speak to someone with his or her language, it has different touching and understanding. We have been using language. I am the schuma. 

17:15
Rich Rudowske
Okay. 

17:16
Bishop Andrew Gulle
But when there are some words, if we are discussing maybe about love of God, if I speak in a Schuma language, it brings deeper meaning. Yes, love in Swahili, it will be somehow like, it’s not so strong. But if I use my language to my pharaoh that God loves you, it brings deeper meaning and a strong meaning. So I’m sure when we will read the word of God using their language, they will really understand. But also there are people who are the old people who really don’t understand very well, Swahili. 

18:05
Rich Rudowske
Okay. 

18:06
Bishop Andrew Gulle
So this also will help that group to be connected to Jesus, because there is a tendency that when people don’t understand the language, they think this message is for a certain group of people. But if they understand the language and you speak with them using their language, they know this is our church, this is our message. So that is my feeling, yes. Okay. 

18:42
Rich Rudowske
So you’ve mentioned before that the difference of people having God’s word in their own language is God is speaking with us. So that’s what you say for the Kareewe people, then they will feel that God is speaking with them directly. So what impact do you think that will have in their community? 

19:00
Bishop Andrew Gulle
The impact is that they will believe in Jesus and they will follow the teachings of the word of God. So they will change. Yeah, they will change receiving the message from God, and then it will be easier to propagate the gospel to those people. 

19:27
Rich Rudowske
Right. So how have you seen the Lord at work through this partnership so far in the Kareewe project and the partnership between Elvd and Lutheran Bible translators? 

19:40
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Yeah, I can say this was God’s plan. The way the project started, the way Eovd came to have partnership with lBts, it is God’s plan. That is what I see, and I see how things is going on it beyond our expectation and it is beyond our plan. So the whole process which is going on, it is God’s plan. I see God is working with us. So our task now is to improve and to make sure we have strong partnership for the benefit of the church. The way I see this partnership is not only for benefit of two parties, I can say is to bring the kingdom of God down, make the kingdom of God reign. 

20:47
Rich Rudowske
Okay. All right. What struggles or challenges do you face in the diocese in general? And have you had any challenges due to Covid or other things like that as well? 

20:57
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Yeah, we will not say that Eovd is not facing challenge with COVID There is. The challenge is that the people are so much worried. And maybe half of church attendance, they stay home because they are afraid that if we go, maybe we will get affected by Covid. So the church has been affected. The church in Tanzania and in Africa, they depend on offering. So if the believer don’t attend Sunday service, it means there is no offering and there is no money to run the church. That is one. But second, there are many believers who are sick because of COVID So the church is also used as an instrument to educate them, to announce, you follow the regressions, do this and that to avoid sickness. So that is really the big challenge. The big challenge. 

22:12
Bishop Andrew Gulle
And also the church has no other means to reach the people. Okay. Yeah. You know, this technology, as you are doing in America, you can reach them through media. And what this technology is so limited here. Not all people, they have mobile phone, they have Facebook. And so it is really difficult. So it is difficult situation to the church nowadays. 

22:44
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. When you eliminate the ability to be in person, face to face, then it becomes limited. 

22:50
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Sure. Is really struggling financially because of COVID struggling to do mission, even visiting people as a pastor, maybe you want to have pastoral counseling to them is so difficult because people are worried if you go to their family, maybe you are sick. The church really is struggling. 

23:19
Rich Rudowske
Yeah. So in the midst of so many challenges and struggles for the church, and then for you, what is the role of your faith and the role of the Bible in your life? I mean, you’ve dedicated your professional career to sharing the gospel, but for you personally, what’s the role of your faith and the Bible in your life? 

23:39
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Yeah. This time also is a good time for evangelism formation. When people lose hope, it is time for the gospel, it is time to plant the faith. So we have seen also people who are coming to Jesus, because when people are despaired, they need encouragement. So the pastor also is witnessing that. This is a good time for the people to believe in Jesus because when they feel that it is beyond our capacity, then it’s God only who has power. This is the time for the people to believe in Jesus. 

24:21
Rich Rudowske
Absolutely. 

24:22
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Yeah. 

24:23
Rich Rudowske
So as you go about your work, what gives you the most joy in your work? 

24:31
Bishop Andrew Gulle
What gives me joy in this work is when I see many people coming to Jesus, when I see the church is tremendously growing, that is really giving me joy. But also when I see other missionary organization like Lutheran Bible translators coming and joining with the Eovd to do mission, that is what also gives me joy that the motto we have reaching the unreached is supported by other missionary organization worldwide. So that is what gives me happy because I see the church growing. 

25:16
Rich Rudowske
Absolutely. So what do you think that the church in the United States, the lutheran churches in the US and Europe, what can they learn from Lutherans in Tanzania? 

25:28
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Yeah. As difficult questions, you know, always the church, the big church, the small church, has something to give and has something to learn from other church. So the church in America has something to give to Africa, and the church from Africa, they have something to give to America, to these churches. So what I think they can learn is how they can keep on doing mission, reaching their people, strengthening the face of their people, and also how they can reach those people who are not yet reached and those who have been Christian. Maybe sometime they are becoming weak. They have to be motivated to be christian. Yes. That is what we do here in east of Lake Victoria diocese. 

26:33
Bishop Andrew Gulle
We have responsibility to keep those who have been Christian for a long time, we want them to continue believing is the responsibility of the pastor to visit them and to know where they live, why they are not coming to church. And then the second responsibility, to reach those who are that. That I think the church in America has to. Yes, yes. Because when I was visiting America and in Europe, when you tell them about, they say, you are not allowed to visit a person. To visit a person and talk with them about your face, it is forbidden. But always I say, I think your setup is different with the setup in Africa. You have other place where you can meet, but you can use that to talk and to encourage those who are. Maybe they have been christian, but they are not active. 

27:36
Bishop Andrew Gulle
And also those who are not reached, you reach them, you witness the word of God. That is what I think. It is not active in Europe and in America, witnessing people. Yes. 

27:52
Rich Rudowske
So, Bishop Gule, what scripture do you have to encourage us today? 

27:56
Bishop Andrew Gulle
I like the scripture which is talking about when Jesus is sending the disciples to go to the mission. Like Luke, chapter five, verses four. Matthew, chapter 28, verses 19 to 20. Mark, chapter 16, verses 16. Sending, sending. And when the vest from Matthew says, I will be with you all time. Yeah. So whatever we do as disciples of Jesus, whatever challenges we face, but God is with us. He will be with us. Eternity. So those are the verses I like most. 

28:48
Rich Rudowske
Absolutely. Thank you. 

28:49
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Yeah. 

28:50
Rich Rudowske
So, as you continue in ministry, how can we be praying for you and your ministry, for the diocese and for the translation project? 

28:59
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Pray for the ministry in Eovd so that God will give us vision and capacity to reach the people and to grow his church in a good way. And also we can pray to our partner, to the LBTs, and the other people who are supporting this ministry that they continue supporting. They continue supporting this ministry because we are doing God’s work. And always God is on our side so that the work of God will grow. 

29:40
Rich Rudowske
Absolutely. Thank you. And it has been a privilege to talk with you today. We’ve been talking with Bishop Gule of the east of Lake Victoria, diocese of the lutheran church in Tanzania. Appreciate your time this morning with us. 

29:53
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Thank you so much. I’m happy to have discussion with you, and thank you for supporting Eovd. 

30:05
Rich Rudowske
What a pleasure talking to Bishop Andrew Goulet. The one thing I love about him is, no matter what the question is, the answer is we have to reach more people with the gospel, and we need to be sending. 

30:16
Emily Wilson
Right. That’s just the heart of mission, what God is doing in the world. And yeah, I remember watching a video footage of Bishop Coule and know that is so central in everything that he know go to the deepest water. We’re reaching out and meeting people where they are in their heart. Language is just his heart, his passion. It’s just really exciting. 

30:43
Bishop Andrew Gulle
Yep. Yeah. 

30:44
Rich Rudowske
And it just goes to continue to punctuate that we in the church are just in these reciprocal relationships. We shouldn’t picture ourselves here from the US as sending and giving. We have so much to receive and so much to learn from these cooperative relationships we have with the church around the world. Thank you for listening to the essentially translatable podcast brought to you by Lutheran Bible translators. You can find past episodes of the podcast@lbt.org slash podcast or subscribe on audible, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow Lutheran Bible translators’social media channels on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. Or go to lbt.org to find out how you can get involved in the Bible translation movement and put God’s word in their hands. This episode of essentially translatable was produced and edited by Andrew Olson and distributed by Sarah Lyons. 

31:33
Rich Rudowske
Executive producer is Emily Wilson. Podcast artwork was designed by Caleb Rotelwald. Music written and formed by Rob White. I’m rich Friedowski. So long for now.